Vacuum cleaner effect
In my reviews, I often write about the 'vacuum cleaner effect'. Updating the review Nikon DX AF-S Nikkor 18-105mm 1: 3.5-5.6G ED SWM VR IF Aspherical, I came up with the idea to record a short video with a clear demonstration of the strength of this effect:
Old-school photographers know that some lenses with some cameras can have such a strong vacuum cleaner effect that it creates discomfort when working with JVI.
The rear lens of the lens once again drives air through the inner compartment of the camera, working like a pumpwhere the mirrors, focusing system, shutter and focusing screen are located, this can sometimes lead to faster contamination of camera parts, including the matrix. Sometimes the effect of a vacuum cleaner is not so terrible, but of course it is better if it were not there at all.
More videos can be viewed at my youtube channel.
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And I shoot with glasses - I don't feel anything. True, the corners in the window are not visible (((
The rear lens of the lens once again drives air through the inner compartment of the camera, where ZARKALA is located (?)
Yes, mirrors - https://radojuva.com.ua/2012/12/second-mirror/
Arkady, I think a friend hinted at a typo that crept into your text
Fixed In such cases, it is better to write directly
You mean - additional cleaning, blows dust off the mirrors? ...
So where is the demonstration of the promulgated promised vacuum cleaner effect?
When it will be ? In subsequent videos?
And it is only so called “the effect of a vacuum cleaner”, in fact, this effect simply drives the air like a pump. Blowing air and shown in the video.
Well, everything drives air (the air is also in the atmosphere) ..
There is air in car wheels too ...
The camera, when you hold it, also has air around it ...
What is the problem then ..
The problems are related to the contamination of the inside of the camera, primarily the matrix, which is expensive to clean, as indicated in the text below the video. Each speck of dust on the matrix with closed apertures is visible in each photo, visually about it here https://radojuva.com.ua/2012/05/sensor-cleaning-about/ and here https://radojuva.com.ua/2013/05/nikon-dust-remove-oceanborn/ :) The “vacuum cleaner” effect can intensify the accumulation of dust and dirt in the lags on the matrix.
do not dissemble
Formally - not only with pollution, but also with cleaning (if you approach it formally) - depending on which direction the compressed air flow will be directed.
I’m not cunning if you approach it from a practical point of view - only pollution.
And if from an unbiased point of view - then looking in which direction the air flow.
In one direction - pollution, in the other direction - cleaning (school physics course, if you do not weave one-sided fantasy and your personal inventions)
Pure physics without personal fantasies
like you are tight with physics.
You had to study at school. so that banal school physics does not surprise you
with logic, you probably are also a little taut.
Here you have rightly noticed - pure physics. And physics is such that dust can get through the smallest holes in the lens or during the rearrangement of lenses. And it is almost impossible to get out of the carcass of this dust. This is pure physics. The probability of getting inside the dust is very high, but from the camera to get back into the environment is elusively small. Look at what a large angle dust is likely to get into the carcass and at what scanty angle this dust is likely to fly out of the carcass. The angles are incomparable. Therefore, if something is vacuumed into the camera, it is simply physically impossible to remove it from there by moving the zoom back and forth.
It's just that a person has apparently never seen an open system unit - there, too, air enters and exits, but the dust, alas, remains inside :)
It's just fair to say - I bought the headline ...
I thought that something negative or even alarming would be shown ...
Ah .. sorry .. absolutely nothing is shown ...
Even the effect of the vacuum cleaner is not shown .. ((
Please try again to understand the essence of the effect, and also read more carefully my comments above :)
I know the essence of the effect very well - that's why I expected to see it in this article ..
Therefore, I asked - when will the effect described in the title be shown ..
Shown in the video. Instead of a candle, for example, there may be a human eye :)
Anatoly, when it will be impossible to examine the pictures because of the dark spots that came from somewhere and you decide to clean the matrix for the first time, here you will understand the negativity of this effect. I remember when I cleaned for the first time, it was soaking at a distance of 5 km.
Be careful, not biased.
It is said just above - it drives air inside the chamber ..
That is, in one direction - blows, in the other - blows off dust and small particles from the mirrors.
Try to be more attentive and thoughtful and try to read what is written, and not to invent something for yourself when you read
No, Anatoly, in fact, cleaning does not work in the opposite direction. Particles of plastic, metal and external dust falling into the inner space of the chamber settle not only on the mirrors but also on the velvet surface of the shaft, it is more difficult to remove them from there than from the focusing screen or the mirror, they get stuck on velvet, impacts of the mirror help them more firmly enter corners and hard to reach places. So even if the effect of the vacuum cleaner captures the dust particles back into the lens, some of them still remain in the camera, which is sad, and it follows that this very effect of the vacuum cleaner is more dirty than it is cleaning.
If “cleaning doesn't work in the opposite direction” - then, consequently, pollution doesn't work in the first direction either.
Trite .. (Or do you adhere to the logic of one-sided and fantasy?)
Anatoly, instead of disgrace, showing his incompetence and inexperience in this matter, it would be better to ask where the dust is taken from the matrix and how it gets there. The network is full of descriptions of this sad phenomenon and many visitors to this resource know about this problem from their own experience, for example, I am among them. It has long been known that inexpensive lenses with plastic mounts may begin to wear out over time and intensity of use, more in the mount points, and less in the helicoid part. This does not mean that the plastic there is strewing with rubbish, but nevertheless it is not difficult to see it, just rub the lens mount with an ear stick and a cotton swab. Accordingly, the effect of a vacuum cleaner or an air pump driving air inside the lens and camera leads to pollution not only of the side walls of the shaft and the inside of the lens, which would be half the trouble, but also of places that greatly affect the ease of shooting (the inside of the viewfinder lens and the focusing screen) and image quality (image sensor and rear lens).
So keep your insinuations with knowledge of the school course in physics and theoretical research with you. If you do not believe those who share their experiences, and do not understand the essence of what the author showed in the video, then at least do not persist in your incompetence or simply do not clog the topic.
So the air is everywhere, from all sides) .. and it is the same on either side of the camera, where it is chasing back and forth. It’s just that if there is no constant air traffic in the chamber, then there is less dirt. I hope this statement does not raise your doubts? You don’t be SO SO a bookworm, because you probably understand what it is about.
Arkady, a comrade simply thought that the zoom would always twist in one direction only ... (one way or another), and it’s endless) .. After all, only under such conditions will we get a real vacuum cleaner, not a vacuum cleaner. But it doesn’t happen .. It’s OBVIOUS. Or not?)
Air drives, only through the inside of the camera. So it’s more correct to say. Because when zooming, the internal volume of the camera changes, which means that the surrounding air is sucked in, pushed out, which is also not very clean. Accordingly, the dust is brought in, and since the surfaces at the camera are not very smooth, the entire dust is deposited and will not be blown off during the reverse flow.
Anatoly, where did you come from so boring?!?!?
Do you disagree with the author? So do a revealing article on your site.
And we honor. I think Arkady will have something to say.
Why stoop to "exposing articles" if the "accusatory article" did not work out either?
There would be an accusation (and not one-sided logic based on double standards) - there would be sense in the articles ..
And since the “accusation” is a rattle, then there is nothing to expose.
Anyone who studied at school, and so obvious
albeit brief, but cool article!
For a video, it might even be better to take 70-300 / 4,5-5,6 - you can even try to blow out the candle flame with it.
Reading some of the posts ... but oh well. In the Latin name of the human race, at least one word is superfluous.
I approve of the video!
I looked, read the comments. Have fun! :)
As I understand it, there may be a misunderstanding due to the presence of two effects.
Effect No. 1. Change the volume of the lens. When the lens decreases, it blows the air it contains into the atmosphere. When the lens increases, it draws in all the cracks in the atmospheric air and dust inside itself. Perhaps this is the effect of a vacuum cleaner.
Effect No. 2. If the lens does not change its volume, and the lens inside it simply moves back and forth (like a train in the subway). There is almost no air intake from the outside, but only air movement inside the lens and camera (air mixing). This is probably not the effect of a vacuum cleaner.
'Effect 1' - due to the movement of the rear group of lens lenses, the volume of the camera-lens system (and not just the lens) changes, and accordingly, with an increase in this volume, the pressure inside drops, and external pressure drives the air through the slots, with a decrease, it has increased air pressure from the inside, which tries to equalize with atmospheric - the 'excess' air comes out through the cracks.
In the second version, there may also be a 'vacuum cleaner effect', but only within the lens, without affecting the air volume of the carcass.
Thanks Arkady! Don't be offended by some of the commentators. Some people simply cannot understand that a “vacuum cleaner” is not a vacuum cleaner.
The effect of a vacuum cleaner sounds like an attempt by marketers to work out their bread, and believers perceive it as a curse. I think most of it has not been noticed throughout life until he was informed that his lens suffers (omg poor) effect of a vacuum cleaner :)
He laughed heartily. And to make the fog worse, we can say that there is a valve inside the chamber and the air can only exit. (The effect of the priests). If you play the zoom back and forth, the air will come out and a vacuum will be established in the inter-chamber space. This will positively affect the sharpness of the images, since the air between the lens and the matrix will not be able to distort the space and the level of chromatic aberration will decrease accordingly. In said, he himself believed, must be patented!
A camera in a hermetic box for deep-sea underwater shooting, and the air is pumped out.
And there will be no vacuum cleaners))
Yes, yes, yes there is
If discrete lenses weren’t so expensive now, I would have changed optics for fixes long ago
use comrades dust-and-moisture-proof optics !!! ...
Canon 24-70 2.8 has dust moisture, but dust sucks in: (Nikon 70-300vr is the same. But the unprotected Canon 70-200 4L does not suck dust. And the protected 17-40 4L does not suck. And it is not clear whether Nikon is protected or not 35 1.8 does not suck :) So it still depends on the structure of the lens.
And which of the wise people who spoke above will be able to explain to me how dust enters the camera, the matrix, if not using the lens pump effect (no matter what the zoom or fix does), how else? and why if the pump has the ability to drive air with dust both in front and back, but the dust axes on the surface of the matrix, the focusing screen and other surfaces of the camera, it’s not possible to fly back from them with the air stream, but in general it’s not just it is very difficult to remove from these surfaces, it seems to grow in and sometimes even with a compressor, it is difficult to blow it off with a compressed air stream, I know this not by articles on the network and not by hearsay, I just have to do it sometimes.
I'd love to hear someone more wise and explanatory opinions, maybe I do not understand something in physics.
I think that dust adheres to the surface of the matrix for several reasons and therefore the strength of adhesion can be different, and it can also depend on the quality (nature) of the dust particles themselves. During long-term operation, the matrix probably heats up and the dust particles can simply “stick”, the matrix becomes electrified and the charged dust particles can also stick, and so on ... And Nikon's shutters tend to be greased ...
oh well, a mirror, if there is a pentaprism, and not a cheap penta-mirror, wherever you go, you can clean the mirror and all the parts inside the mount. but I had such a problem with Sigma 70-210, I shot the session and then when I started looking at the results, I saw a bunch of spots. at first I thought that the matrix was dirty, no, clean. Then he carefully looked into the lens and saw a bunch of dust. I had to disassemble, clean. So much for the vacuum cleaner.
... and most importantly, the air is full of dust !!! And you sometimes unfasten the lens? Something like this )))
On some lenses with M42 mount, with a tightly screwed back cover, the helicoid travel is very tight, but it is worth loosen the cover and it is desirable to unscrew it a little, the move becomes very light, this indicates a well-lubricated helicoid, but a very high travel density due to the air in the interior which is difficult to get out with a tight fit both of the cover and on the camera (towards the lens mount due to the tight fit and in the opposite direction due to the very high-quality grease of the helicoid, which serves as a sealant), which leads to a strong suction of air and dust along with it, due to heating matrices, this is true, it is advisable to clean it in time if dust is found on it, otherwise it is very difficult and time-consuming to do later, it burns strongly to the matrix, this has already been repeatedly checked with a screen and a prism, everything is much easier, but it is advisable to blow everything off either suck in, as soon as you touch any means for wiping you will be very upset and only one thought will come to mind “It would be better not to climb” because it was better before.
Arkady, the video shows blowing air from the OVI eyepiece to the candle flame,
as I understand it, the eyepiece lens itself is missing to show the passage of air through the carcass itself. On this basis, if the carcass has rubber seals, then it will be difficult for air to exit the carcass and it will go out through the pump connections of the lens itself, which is natural. Thus, with air, dust will primarily fall on the lenses of the lens.
Believe me, the eyepiece lens is present, but it is not hermetically glued, and it really blows noticeably in the eye, for example, when the zoom is changed to 70-300Vr (especially at the end of the working day, when the eyes are also tired).
from 28-300 on nikon d700 with unscrewed eyepiece lens even worse - draft
And lens manufacturers would do well to make a filtered air outlet on the side, as is done on some hard drives.
An all-weather camera, ideally, should be with a lens that does not change its geometric dimensions and filled with dry nitrogen, making such a photon is not so difficult and no problems with dust and condensation.
I'm afraid to make a mistake, but it seems that such a filter is present in Nikon (the grating below immediately behind the bayonet ring)
... a funny video ... Who needs these zooms! Shoot with fixes!
Yeah, Canon 85 1.2 seems to be a fix, but the dust sucks - what to do? :)
The zoom should be turned as slowly as possible without jerking and there will be no vacuum cleaner ...
I read some Comments and begin to understand how stupid people have become around. They are told one thing, they turn it over and, with a lack of understanding, cut it off the shoulder of another. It was not about how much and what kind of air around the camera and inside it, but about dust, which is everywhere. there is dust even inside you. As for the camera, this very dust does not disappear, getting caught when changing optics, and then they only drive it through the chamber space with air (what’s there. What’s back). There was dust on the mirror, they moved sharply with a zoom lens, they gave air, dust from the mirror and settled on the shutter or the walls of the bay. and so every time. and no matter which way the air flow. And when the shutter fires, especially at slow shutter speeds, when the shutter is open and the matrix is not covered by anything, this very dust is attracted to the matrix surface by air currents and due to static electricity, clogging it. Much easier to understand this process, I do not know. Everyone knows how to understand iPhones / iPads, and other people's personal lives very well, and they don’t have enough understanding of the simple and very unpleasant physical brain process. 10 years later, they themselves will not be able to make children, because they will not understand the process of what is happening. It’s a shame, very much, that there are so many uneducated idiots around.
Throw in any textbook on theoretical mechanics, holding it by the bottom base - everything will turn out very clearly.
I ask the Photographic People to compile a table on the lenses for the effect of a vacuum cleaner and recommendations for replacing some (dusty) lenses with dustless ones. Thank you