Mirrorless fever. System selection discussion

This is an ode to full-frame mirrorless cameras with autofocus support.

Mirrorless fever

Mirrorless fever. In the picture, a reference to Alice Madness Returns

Who is the first - that and the slippers!

It all started with Sony. The cropped mirrorless cameras with E mount grew into full-frame cameras with FE mount:

  • October 16 2013 Two full-frame mirrorless cameras were presented at once: Sony a7 и Sony a7r... Sony calls them ILCE (Interchangeable Lens Camera E-mount, E-mount camera with interchangeable lenses). Later, the 'a7 x', 'a7R x' line was supplemented with the 'a7S x' and 'a9 x' rulers

After two years pulled up LEICA with L mount:

  • October 20 2015 a full-frame mirrorless camera came out Leica SL (Typ 601), the first camera with a Leica L mount. This is the same mount that the alliance of Leica, Panasonic and Sigma will use for their future mirrorless cameras (about the older rangefinder cameras from Leica like Leica M9 mentioned below)

And only after about пять лет the others pulled themselves up

  • August 23 2018 full-frame mirrorless came out Nikon Z7 и Nikon Z6. Bayonet mount Nikon Z... My question is: is the Nikon 'Z7' model imitating the Sony 'a7' name?
  • 5 September 2018 camera appeared Canon EOS R and a little bit later February 13 2019 year Canon EOS RP. Bayonet mount Canon rf
  • February 1 2019 camera was announced Panasonic Lumix S1 и Panasonic Lumix S1R. A little later Panasonic Lumix S1H. Leica L mount, same as camera Leica SL
  • 11 2019 June development was announced Sigma fp, and on October 10, 2019 the camera was officially unveiled

For 2013, Sony's mirrorless full-frame system was young and attracted mostly enthusiasts. The cameras did not have a built-in image stabilizer, the park of mirrorless optics was very limited, the feasibility of switching to these mirrorless cameras was a big question. But time passed, the system developed, overgrown with lenses and useful things.

Sensors

The sensor (matrix) is one of the most important aspects of any camera.

Sony itself produces sensors for its cameras. It is worth noting that at the same time, Sony creates a huge variety of camcorders / camcorders, including those based on full-frame sensors, for example, Sony NEX-VG900 or Sony VENICE MPC-3610. The company has vast experience in creating sensors.

An essential stone in the Nikon garden is the fact that in their full-frame cameras they use sensors made by the same Sony company. Most likely the sensor used to Nikon z6 similar to 'original' Sony a7 III. Sensor Nikon z7 also made by Sony.

Camera Sensors Panasonic Lumix S1 и Panasonic Lumix S1R most likely from a third-party manufacturer (Towerjazz?). Rumor has it that Panasonic Lumix S1R uses a sensor from Leica Q2. No reliable data.

The data on the sensor manufacturer for Nikon and Panasonic are speculative enough and an exact answer on this question cannot be found.

Sensors for Canon EOS Canon does it directly and this is very good news. And the bad news is that the mirrorless sensor Canon EOS taken from a slr camera Canon EOS 5D Mark IV. A sensor Canon EOS RP taken from a slr camera Canon EOS 6D Mark II. It is worth noting that Canon also creates a huge variety of video cameras / camcorders, including those based on full-frame sensors, for example, for the Canon ME20F-SH. The company also has vast experience in creating sensors. It was Canon that became the first company to release the first successful full frame in the face Canon EOS 1DS.

Stand alone Leica. Which, in fact, still 9 September 2009 (09-09-09!) Introduced the first full-frame 'mirrorless' camera Leica M9. But Leica M9 It was a rangefinder camera (without Live View and autofocus) and does not fit the role of a classic mirrorless camera. Her full-frame CCD sensor for Leica M9 and all its modifications (Leica M9-P, Leica M Monochrom, Leica ME Typ 220, etc.) was developed and created by the legendary company Kodak, which had extensive experience in creating sensors. 17 September 2012 Leica M9 was supplemented by a rangefinder camera Leica M (Typ 240 and its huge variety of modifications), whose CMOS sensor was developed by CMOSIS, and manufactured by STMicroelectronics. Most likely the sensor LEICA SL (Typ 601) also manufactured by STMicroelectronics.

Lenses

Optics park is a very important indicator of any system.

Since 2013, Sony has increased a large number of lenses, both original and third-party manufacturers. A nice plus is the compatibility of cropped Sony Nex and Sony Alpha cameras with full-frame lenses, as well as the ability to install cropped lenses on full-frame cameras. Everything is logical and concise. A very, very strong advantage of the system is the openness of the protocol, which means that the development of lenses by third-party manufacturers is greatly simplified. At the same time, the possibility of getting a problem in the operation of a third-party lens with the release of a new camera is minimized. To release autofocus Tamron, Tokina, Sigma, and many small companies have already joined full-frame mirrorless lenses with an E / FE mount.

All Sony FE Lenses

Fixes:

  1. Sony FE 14 mm F / 1.8 GM
  2. Sony FE 20 mm F / 1.8 G
  3. Sony FE 24 mm F / 1.4 GM
  4. Sony FE 24 mm F / 2.8 G
  5. Sony FE 28 mm F / 2.0
  6. Sony FE 35 mm F / 1.4 GM
  7. Sony FE 35 mm F / 1.4 ZA
  8. Sony FE 35 mm F / 1.8
  9. Sony FE 35 mm F / 2.8 ZA
  10. Sony FE 40 mm F / 2.5 G
  11. Sony FE 50 mm F / 1.2 GM
  12. Sony FE 50 mm F / 1.4 ZA
  13. Sony FE 50 mm F / 1.8
  14. Sony FE 50 mm F / 2.8 Macro
  15. Sony FE 50 mm F / 2.5 G
  16. Sony FE 55 mm F / 1.8 ZA
  17. Sony FE 85 mm F / 1.4 GM
  18. Sony FE 85 mm F / 1.8
  19. Sony FE 90 mm F / 2.8 Macro G U.S.S
  20. Sony FE 100 mm F / 2.8 STF GM U.S.S
  21. Sony FE 135 mm F / 1.8 GM
  22. Sony FE 400 mm F / 2.8 GM U.S.S
  23. Sony FE 600 mm F / 4 GM U.S.S

Zuma:

  1. Sony FE 12-24 mm F / 2.8 GM
  2. Sony FE 12-24 mm F / 4 G
  3. Sony FE 16-35 mm F / 2.8 GM
  4. Sony FE 16-35 mm T / 3.1 PZ GC
  5. Sony FE 16-35 mm F / 4 ZA U.S.S
  6. Sony FE 24-70 mm F / 2.8 GM
  7. Sony FE 24-70 mm F / 4 ZA U.S.S
  8. Sony FE 24-105 mm F / 4 G U.S.S
  9. Sony FE 24-240 mm F / 3.5-6.3 OSS
  10. Sony FE 28-60 mm F / 4-5.6
  11. Sony FE 28-70 mm F / 3.5-5.6 OSS
  12. Sony FE 28-135 mm F / 4 G PZ U.S.S
  13. Sony FE 70-200 mm F / 2.8 GM U.S.S
  14. Sony FE 70-200 mm F / 4 G U.S.S
  15. Sony FE 70-300 mm F / 4.5-5.6 G U.S.S
  16. Sony FE 100-400 mm F / 4.5-5.6 GM U.S.S
  17. Sony FE 200-600 mm F / 5.6-6.3 G U.S.S

Autofocus full-frame lenses for Sony E / FE mount are also available from other manufacturers: Tamron, Sigma, tokina, felttrox, Samyang, Zeiss batis, Yongnuo (follow the links for detailed lists of all lenses)

The Sony E has an original 'A' mount SLR lens adapter with almost full support. True, there are many nuances with the adapter described in the review. Sony LA-EA4.

Nikon Z still has a very small lens park (exact list) In addition, the mount has a closed protocol, which complicates the development of lenses from third-party manufacturers.

List of all 'Nikon Nikkor Z' full-frame lenses for mirrorless cameras with Nikon Z mount

Fixes:

  1. Nikon Nikkor Z 20 mm 1:1.8 S
  2. Nikon Nikkor Z 24 mm 1:1.8 S
  3. Nikon Nikkor Z 28 mm 1:2.8
  4. Nikon Nikkor Z 28 mm 1:2.8 SE
  5. Nikon Nikkor Z 35 mm 1:1.8 S
  6. Nikon Nikkor Z 40 mm 1:2
  7. Nikon Nikkor Z 50 mm 1:1.2 S
  8. Nikon Nikkor Z 50 mm 1:1.8 S
  9. Nikon Nikkor Z 50 mm 1:2.8 S MC
  10. Nikon Nikkor Z 58 mm 1:0.95 S Nod [MF]
  11. Nikon Nikkor Z 85 mm 1:1.8 S
  12. Nikon Nikkor Z 105 mm 1:2.8 VR S MC

Zuma:

  1. Nikon Nikkor Z 14-24 mm 1:2.8 S
  2. Nikon Nikkor Z 14-30 mm 1:4 S
  3. Nikon Nikkor Z 24-50 mm 1: 4-6.3
  4. Nikon Nikkor Z 24-70 mm 1:4 S
  5. Nikon Nikkor Z 24-70 mm 1:2.8 S
  6. Nikon Nikkor Z 24-200 mm 1: 4-6.3 VR
  7. Nikon Nikkor Z 70-200 mm 1:2.8 VR S

Lenses are designed to work with Nikon Z series cameras: Z5, Z6, Z6 II, Z7, Z7 II , Z9 + Z50, Z fc... Another autofocus lens for Nikon Z makes felttrox: 24/1.8, 35/1.8, 85/1.8.

  • S (S-line, Superior, Special, Sophisticated) - a line of professional Nikon Nikkor Z lenses of the highest quality
  • SE (Special Edition) - special versions of lenses with a retro design
  • VR (Vibration Reduction) - Built-in Image Stabilizer (Vibration Reduction)
  • MC (Macro) - lenses for macro photography
  • Noct (Nocturnal) - specialized lenses with excellent optical performance
  • MF (Manual Focusing) - manual focusing only [markings are missing on the lens barrel]

Existing adapter Nikon FTZ for SLR mount lenses, Nikon F does not support operation with older AF lenses.

Canon also has a very small fleet of mirrorless lenses (exact list), as well as a closed protocol.

An accurate and complete list of all Canon RF lenses:

Fixes:

  1. Canon Lens RF 16 mm F2.8 STM
  2. Canon Lens RF 35 mm F1.8 MACRO IS STM
  3. Canon Lens RF 50 mm F1.8 STM
  4. Canon Lens RF 50 mm F1.2 L USM
  5. Canon Lens RF 85 mm F1.2 L USM
  6. Canon Lens RF 85 mm F1.2 L USM DS (DEFOCUS SMOOTHING)
  7. Canon Lens RF 85 mm F2 MACRO IS STM
  8. Canon Lens RF 100 mm F2.8 L MACRO IS USM SA CONTROL
  9. Canon Lens RF 400 mm F2.8 L IS USM
  10. Canon Lens RF 600 mm F11 IS STM
  11. Canon Lens RF 600 mm F4 L IS USM
  12. Canon Lens RF 800 mm F11 IS STM

Zuma:

  1. Canon Lens RF 14-35mm F4 L IS USM
  2. Canon Lens RF 15-35mm F2.8 L IS USM
  3. Canon Lens RF 24-70mm F2.8 L IS USM
  4. Canon Lens RF 24-105mm F4 L IS USM
  5. Canon Lens RF 24-105mm F4-7.1 IS STM
  6. Canon Lens RF 24-240mm F4-6.3 IS USM
  7. Canon Lens RF 28-70mm F2 L USM
  8. Canon Lens RF 70-200mm F4 L IS USM
  9. Canon Lens RF 70-200mm F2.8 L IS USM
  10. Canon Lens RF 100-400mm F5.6-8 IS USM
  11. Canon Lens RF 100-500mm F4.5-7.1 L IS USM

The easiest way to find these lenses is at E-Catalog or Socket.

For Canon RF mount, there are also autofocus lenses from Samyang: 14/2.8, 85/1.4 and from Yongnuo: 35/2, 85/1.8.

The Canon EF mount DSLR adapter supports almost all lenses. There are no particular restrictions. In addition, you can choose from several adapter options and get additional functionality. But, unlike Sony, cropped mirrorless lenses and Canon EOS M cameras with mount Ef-m not compatible with Canon EOS R mount system RF.

There are also very, very few original mirrorless autofocus lenses for Panasonic and Leica. But they have a trump card up their sleeve - this is Sigma, which is part of the L-mount alliance and which over time will convert many of their lenses to Leica L mounts, and they have already converted many of them.

Exact list of Panasonic LUMIX S lenses (Leica L mount)

  1. 24mm 1: 1.8
  2. 50mm 1: 1.4 PRO CBL
  3. 50mm 1: 1.8
  4. 85mm 1: 1.8
  5. 16-35mm 1: 4 PRO CBL
  6. 20-60mm 1:3.5-5.6
  7. 24-70mm 1: 2.8 PRO CBL
  8. 24-105mm 1: 4 Ois
  9. 70-200mm 1: 4 PRO CBL Ois
  10. 70-200mm 1: 2.8 PRO CBL Ois
  11. 70-300mm 1:4.5-5.6 MACRO Ois 

CBL (Certified By Leica), Ois (Optical Istomach Stabilizer), PRO (PROfessional), MACRO (macro shooting capability)

Panasonic does not have an adapter for mirror lenses, since Panasonic simply does not have full-frame mirror lenses, and therefore the optics park cannot be expanded due to old autofocus mirror lenses. Almost the same can be said about Leica L.

Exact list of LEICA SL lenses (Leica L mount)

These lenses are designed to work with cameras:

Sigma (Leica L mount)

The following lenses are available with the Leica L mount:

List of all full-frame mirrorless, as well as their cost

By links you can see the cost body in popular stores on the E-Katalog website:

By the way, the list above includes all the 'classic' full frame mirrorless cameras. The choice is already large enough.

My experience

I do not like that until now they have not released a truly professional full-frame super-mirrorless with a combo body like the top Nikon and Canon. When this happens, then I will completely and irrevocably consider the full-frame mirrorless cameras to be completely successful, a worthy evolutionary replacement for DSLRs. By the way, Olympus did such a trick in its Olympus OM-D E-M1XIt’s only a pity that this is a cropped camera with Kf = 2.0.

Recently, newcomers often ask me what full-frame BZK to buy? In general, I find a good balanced solution. Sony a7 III.

But experienced users and professionals can easily decide for themselves their future mirrorless camera / system. Leave your informed opinions on a particular camera or system in the comments. Now the mirrorless war has gained serious momentum and many cannot decide on their future system.

I'm not in a hurry and stay on the DSLRs for now.

Сonclusion

It's simple. Sony, as a mirrorless full-frame system, has managed to gain weight in 5 years, acquire lenses, technologies and in many ways outstripped such 'market whales' as Nikon and Canon. Nikon, Canon, especially Leica and Panasonic mirrorless systems are not as attractive as Sony. First of all, due to the small park of original optics and closed protocols. If in 2013 I could not even think that a mirrorless full frame from Sony could become the main system for work, then in 2019 this is quite acceptable. Of course, everything can change, and Sony can just as quickly leave the podium as it climbed there due to the lack of proper competition.

Materials on the topic

  1. Full frame mirrorless systems... Discussion, choice, recommendations.
  2. Cropped mirrorless systems... Discussion, choice, recommendations.
  3. Cropped mirrorless systems that have stopped or are no longer developing
  4. Digital SLR systems that have stopped or are no longer developing
  5. JVI or EVI (an important article that answers the question 'DSLR or mirrorless')
  6. About mirrorless batteries
  7. Simple and clear medium format
  8. High-speed solutions from Chinese brands
  9. All fastest autofocus zoom lenses
  10. All fastest AF prime lenses
  11. Mirrored full frame on mirrorless medium format
  12. Autofocus Speed ​​Boosters
  13. One lens to rule the world
  14. The impact of smartphones on the photography market
  15. What's next (smartphone supremacy)?
  16. All announcements and novelties of lenses and cameras

Comments on this post do not require registration. Anyone can leave a comment. For the selection of a variety of photographic equipment, I recommend E-Catalog, Socket и AliExpress.

Material prepared Arkady Shapoval... Look for me on Youtube | Facebook | VK | Instagram | Twitter.

Add a comment:

 

 

Comments: 316, on the topic: Mirrorless fever. System selection discussion

    • Cat

      And the Beatles are fake! How do you know? The neighbor sang! ))))
      And now we are analyzing the terrible and sad news from the link above.
      Firstly, the news is not about the ff bz market, but the ff bz market of JAPAN. I hope the difference is clear?
      We read on. The “fall” of the share is due to the fact that the date when Sony was the only one doing ff bz was taken as the starting point, ie. had 100%.
      Then 2 bz canon, 2 bz nikon enter the market, which, due to the cessation of sales of d610, d750, 6dmk2, 5dmk4 (in whole or in part), provide a total of 50% of the sales of the new bz ff market, where there are already 4 companies.
      In things and in $$$, Sony is fine.
      But if you look at the sales of Nikon and Kenon in pieces and $$$ everything is not so rosy there, it is obvious that the new mirrorless ones just take away the shares of their own DSLRs, i.e. pure cannibalism.
      For the consumer, such competition is only a plus, you can expect new technologies and low prices.

  • anonym

    The BZK has been supplanting for 10 years and cannot supplant the ZK. And because this is not a new technology, but the old one, all compacts work on the same principle, here only the optics are removable.

    • Cat

      You write complete garbage without even thinking about the flow of your unconscious.
      Bzk ff started in 2013. They, in principle, could not displace the mirrors then because of children's sores and the lack of a good and fast af.
      The main problems and testing were completed by 2018, the third generation of bz ff are slick, excellent cameras that brought down the ff DSLR market.
      Because of this, both Nikon and Kenon were forced to throw half-baked bz onto the market in order to at least somehow reduce the outflow of customers.
      And yes, both kenon and nikon reduce the crop and ff DSLR lines, precisely because they are no longer needed.

      • Artem

        and meanwhile, your already licked UPC and have children's sores. Weak battery, shutter lag.
        And in general, not everything is so simple. BHC is more convenient for walking and street photos when I took out the camera and took it. For work, they are not so reliable.

        • Pokemon

          He took out the camera without a lens?
          The laws of optics have not been canceled.

  • anonym

    M5, albeit a crop, but better than your sonok a6400 +

  • Vladimir Bogush

    The most confident and consistent manufacturer of mirrorless cameras and superior lenses is Fujifilm.
    Although I am a longtime fan of Nikon (D750) and have a full fleet of optics, I am quietly moving to this system (XT-3).
    Benefits - How to take off heavy boots and put on sneakers.
    A full frame is not good.

    • Hair dryer

      Given how successful the Z series has become, what's the problem with changing into sneakers and keeping the full frame? Modern crop top-level mirrorless cameras are in no way inferior to their full-frame counterparts in terms of price and size.

      • Pokemon

        I will NOT switch to Z due to the lack of an adapter for non-motorized lenses. It is fundamentally.
        While he is gone, greedy Nikon goes through the forest.
        *
        I didn't understand the second sentence at all.
        Crop bzk are not cheap, but what is cheap now?
        Crop BZK will be replaced twice in the near future. Those. these will be cameras for vloggers. Fuji and Sony have such cameras (a6500-a6600)

        • Alexey

          such an adapter, obviously, will never be. and not at all for technical reasons, although purely technically it is by no means easy to do.

  • Arkady Shapoval

    Record updated. Added all (all-all) original lenses for different mirrorless mounts for full-frame cameras. You can clearly see how many lenses Sony has managed to build up while the rest are cool. You can also see how much Sigma helped the Leica-L mount (for Leica, Panasonic, Sigma cameras).

    • R'RёS,R ° F "RёR№

      Where in Ukraine can you really buy sigma l-mount lenses? Google didn't help. Besides Panasonic, there are no offers.

  • Oleg

    Why did they forget the Leica M8, it is the first rangefinder mirrorless camera from Leica, but not the M9 ...

    • Arkady Shapoval

      Does the M8 have a full-frame sensor?

  • Jury

    Thanks for the informative and interesting article. As you can see, of the major players in the market of full-frame mirrorless cameras, only Fufifilm and Olympus are missing. The first, in addition to APS-C, still has a medium format GFX, but it's too cool and expensive. The second seemed to be stuck in the past with its micro 4: 3, to which the cameras of top smartphones are already breathing in the back. I wonder when they will start moving towards the full frame.

    • Arkady Shapoval

      I believe that after the publication Olympus OM-D E-M1X the company made it clear that it’s not about the full frame, nor about the APS-C.

  • Pineapple

    Due to the ingress of water, my d7000 ordered to live a long time, and now I am choosing a new camera. My main interests now are reporting in poor lighting conditions (small concerts in small clubs) and street photography, with an eye to turning my passion for photography into full-fledged earnings, reporting for the most part. I choose between d750 and z6. In the UPC attracts focusing on the eyes, an intra-camera stabilizer and slightly smaller dimensions. Scares off the EVI lag and battery life. I don’t care about the color, if necessary I’ll finish it in the editors.
    Of the lenses there are 28-75 2.8, 80-200 2.8, 50 d-versions and a bunch of manual ones for the soul :) I know that only 6-28 will work on z75, well, so I mostly use it. A couple of fixes (wide and long portrait) in any case will be needed sooner or later.
    Or is it better not to bathe and take the time-tested d750? How's the z6 focusing on fast-moving people in the dim light? In general, I want to hear opinions from the outside.

    • Valery

      If it’s mirrorless, then Sony7m3, at the moment the best in terms of c / c, did not stand near the z6,

      • Arkady Shapoval

        Soon the fourth will be released

      • Pineapple

        I don’t want to switch to another system yet. I bought a d750 already.

      • US6IBD

        Are you serious? Look on YouTube for the latest review “Top 10 mirrorless cameras from Toptygin”. A bit tedious, but the reviews are very serious. This is not for you not Kai W, who basically pours water. The Z6 bypasses both the Sony 7m3 and the Canon R. And the Z7, even more so, covers them like a bull. Although they are not the leaders of the TOP 10 either.

      • Hair dryer

        A little time passed and it turned out that in a number of characteristics the z6 turned out to be significantly better than the a73, so everything is relative :))

        • Ruslan

          Please tell me what is better?

  • Golden dozht

    Where's ff bzk Nikon DF?

    • Arkady Shapoval

      DF Is it bzk?

      • Vitaly N

        I will continue about Df - there is a review, but it is not in the list of camera reviews.

        • Oleg

          It is on the list, just in the “Reviews from Radozhiva's readers” section. Not very convenient, by the way. It would be much more convenient if they were in the general list.

          • Vitaly N

            Like the announcements. It seems that there are topics with discussions and reviews, but you will find FIGs.

        • Arkady Shapoval

          I did not do a text review on DF

          • Vitaly N

            Yes you get it. He’s like, but he’s not https://radojuva.com/2016/11/nikon-df-obzor-ot-chitatelya-radozhivy/... You have a lot of topics that you need to use a search engine to find, not a menu. Kick-ass how uncomfortable. The question has been raised more than once, but the answer is one - Google to help. Even in topics, when Df or other devices are mentioned, links lead to the store, and not to the review on this site. Why then such reviews and announcements - in order to be in oblivion or on the second page of Google? Exit the moderator mode and try to surf your own site without a search engine.

            • Arkady Shapoval

              No, I never answered "Google for help", there are 2-3 sections where materials are collected throughout the site :)

  • Arkady Shapoval

    Added vidosik on this subject.

  • Ruslan

    Sony, Sony…. Tell me, no one cares that their bzk have terrible screens and evi in ​​terms of color rendering, bb and exposure?

    It repulses me ... I had a sleepyhead a7 ... I have a second time olympus omd 10 Mk ii. And on the Olympus I can display bb on the screen (although the auto bb is almost perfect) and the exposure does not lie ..

  • Igor

    The Nikon Z6 and Z7 cameras and their second re-release are a pitiful resemblance to the UPC. Raw and ancient. They should have been released about 4 years ago.

  • Bresler

    There was information that the service life of UPC cameras is THREE times less than that of DSLRs of a similar class. The weight is already the same, the price is the same or even higher. Conclusion - in the coffin I saw these UPC. I thought for a long time, changed D5200 to D7500, that's enough for my life.

    • Arkady Shapoval

      In general, this is incorrect information. But faith is both terrible and useful.

      • Bresler

        I'm sorry, I didn't put it that way. Not the service life of the UPC, but the life of the UPC from one battery. Just don't write to me about spare batteries. I have them too, but over the years I realized one thing - you can count on the one standing in the cell. One can only hope for spare ones (I forgot to charge at home, etc., etc.) My chamber is always charged. But what you thought (camera resource) interested me. That's about the shutters https://club.dns-shop.ru/review/t-143-zerkalnyie-kameryi/8503-pro-resurs-i-lag-zatvora-zerkalnyih-kamer-i-bezzerkalok/ I didn't dig further, look for the matrix yourself (I think there is also not everything unambiguously there). Many years ago, after the ingenious apparatus Smena 8M, I dreamed of Zenit, but having twisted Zenit and FED in the store, I chose FED, and did not regret it later. That is, then I ran away from the DSLR. My best shots, it seems to me, were taken by Smena. Everything said above in no way pretends to be an immutable truth, and expresses only my opinion (possibly erroneous).

        • Arkady Shapoval

          in 7 years since that article, oh, how much water has flowed under the bridge (from a completely electronic shutter without resource limitation and ending with the appearance of TOP boosters with a declared resource of 400.000), now boosters are the only way of camera building, and it's not all that simple about Akums, I wrote about it here https://radojuva.com/2020/10/milc-evil-dslm-battery-life/

          • Victor

            That's right, in terms of batteries, everything strongly depends on the shooting style - from a multiple (smaller) in comparison with DSLRs, to even exceeding the mirror resource (when using an electronic shutter and continuous shooting)

          • Bresler

            Well, the author seems to have updated it that year. Well, the dog is with her. Take Nikon z50 vs Nikon d7500 compare. While about the crop. The price is exactly the same. Which one would you choose? I'm sure the cost of the Z50 is much lower. And if it would be cheaper, maybe I considered it for purchase. I waited for UPC cameras, hoping that they would be simpler and cheaper with the same characteristics. But alas. However, you are right, the future belongs to them, tk. it is more profitable for the manufacturer to produce the UPC.

          • Bresler

            An electronic shutter is good, a new super processor or two will handle noise just fine. There is no optical stabilization, we will make an electronic one, it will remove the blur. Further more. Why do we need optical zoom when our new processor can handle digital? As a result, instead of photography, our output is computer graphics and we cease to recognize ourselves on it. What's next? Film!!! They will release a camera analogue of Smena 8m at a frenzied price, development, film is the same. Marketers will glorify all of this, customers wry their noses at the word "digital camera". Take care of your D40, it will never become outdated.

            • Victor

              And what did you want to say?

              Don't like progress? Well, it doesn't depend on you in any way.
              Is it that new mirrorless cameras are expensive? And where did you get the idea that it is certainly cheaper in production? Are you involved in this production? Also, are you not aware that the price of a product does not consist only of spare parts?

            • Arkady Shapoval

              Matrix stabilization for all serious mirrorless cameras, none of the serious mirrorless cameras bother with digital zoom. Yes, your general passage is not very clear, including the mention of d40

              • Bresler

                It's just that you take such photos on D40 that most owners of top-end cameras will never take. It's not a compliment.

              • Arkady Shapoval

                This does not change the fact that the new technique is very good :)

    • Victor

      Why in THREE? Not at five, not at seven, not at two, at worst?))

      Do you yourself understand the absurdity of this information, or do you just want to believe it unconditionally?

    • Alexey

      This is some kind of delusional vulgaris. all that comes to mind is the thought of guaranteed obsolescence and failure. yes, that can be done. but only on purpose.

  • Alexey

    I read some of your articles on mirrorless cameras and I still don't understand why people buy them at all. A mirrorless is a non-mirror for the price of a DSLR. You can understand the manufacturer - he needs to produce and sell. But what about the consumer? If you don't want to bother with interchangeable optics, you can take ultrazoom, but not at the price of a DSLR. And if with a replaceable one - a DSLR. I did not see a single sensible dignity in EVI.

    • Ivan

      First, you are confusing concepts. Interchangeable lenses are not synonymous with SLR cameras. Secondly, the mirror in the cameras is a vestige from film cameras. Now the technical possibilities allow getting rid of the mirror, while removing separate focusing and exposure metering sensors. Ahead is the global shutter, which will rid the camera of the mechanical shutter. UPC is progress. The quality of the UPC is no longer inferior to the ZK, and in some ways even surpasses it.

      • Alexey

        Again, I did not see a single weighty argument against DSLRs and behind the UPC. Is it the purpose of life to get rid of the mirror? I don't have it, what's the point. The complexity of the design? This is not my problem, the manufacturer is dealing with it. Focus sensors in DSLRs work faster than in UPC. And UPC eats a lot of energy. In short, you are using the stamps of advertisers, trying to lure him with a bright wrapper.

        • Ivan

          I am not using any cliches, but speaking from a technical point of view. Basically, for a photographer it doesn't matter what is inside the camera at all. The camera is a tool for him. A photographer uses a tool to create and create art, and he can do it with any tool.

        • Ivan

          I have not given any arguments for or against. There is no purpose in life to get rid of the mirror. Simply, for a digital camera, this is really an extra element. If you follow your logic, then the electric car should have left a manual transmission, because you so want and you do not have such a goal in life - to get rid of the manual gearbox.

        • Victor

          Okay, look.

          The first argument is that the metering algorithms are imperfect. On the mirror, sometimes you have to double-check how the frame came out and introduce exposure compensation, making another frame. On the mirrorless, you can see how the frame will come out even BEFORE shooting the first one and enter the necessary correction even before it. Saves time and resource of the mechanical shutter.

          The second argument, as mentioned above by Ivan, is the simplification of the design, getting rid of the already unnecessary mechanical elements. It's no secret that any even the most reliable mechanism eventually fails, the mirror lifting unit on the cool d700 DSLR is an example of this. And the shutter itself. On a mirrorless camera, all the functions of these elements were transferred to “unlimited” electronics. In addition, due to the placement of phase focusing sensors directly on the matrix, we got rid of another drawback of DSLRs - back-front focus, because not always in-camera corrections in DSLRs allow it to be solved, and also a bonus is the ability to shoot video with sighting through a peephole.

          And thirdly, finally - the ability to play with dimensions. You need a full-size mirrorless camera - please, you need a really compact one with a pancake-fix in your pocket - here you go. And all this, mind you, on one mount.

          In addition, fans of manual glasses also got the opportunity to use any manual lenses, even from rangefinder cameras.

          Yes, the mirrorless initially had many disadvantages for children - poor autofocus, short battery life, stalled sighting through imperfect evi, but now they are quite successfully leaving them - focusing is just as fast, multi-pixel viewfinders at 240Hz and an ever-increasing battery life.

          And the most important thing is that technical progress is inexorable, over time you simply will not be left with a choice :-)

          • Peter Sh.

            The tiny phase-detection AF sensors on the bzk have nothing to do with the AF system of DSLRs. They simply cannot be compared.

            What is the value of DSLRs? The fact that they give a guaranteed result, regardless (relatively) of the shooting conditions.
            And when, in a bad light, the bzk suddenly begins to drive a marriage, all its value and all its advantages (still controversial) instantly fly into the pipe.
            Perhaps someday the bzk will become just as reliable. Will take a look. In the meantime, bzk remain mainly toys for amateurs.

            • Arkady Shapoval

              I should note that even in very poor light, UPCs work very well, and even their focuser sensitivity is much higher than that of the overwhelming majority of professionals. But, I understand, changing something, especially your own idea, is quite difficult. Most photographers are very conservative and do not perceive new things well.

              • Peter Sh.

                You can't take off ballroom dancing at the BZK. This is unambiguous. Until you shoot, on any camera.
                There is the limit of the possibilities of optics and technology.
                It is quite possible that this will also be mastered in the future.
                I am personally interested in it myself. And yes, if DSLRs simply stop producing, then there will be no other way out.

            • Victor

              Bzk are no longer toys for amateurs.

              And you can ask - you are so confidently claiming that ballroom dancing cannot be filmed on any mirrorless camera - have you filmed all models?

              And on Canon p5, and on Sony A1, and Fuj xt4? Do I understand you correctly?

          • Alexey

            Please give an example of a UPC model with the same focusing speed as a similar ZK?

            • Arkady Shapoval

              Focusing speed is not only about the camera, but also about the lenses. For example, a Sony with their four motors in the lenses and constant tracking of the frame does not feel at all that focusing is there as such, it is instantaneous.
              In addition, as a counterexample, I can cite sets of the top-end CZK with slow lenses (even professional ones), where the focusing speed is like a turtle. Subtleties.

              • Alexey

                I'm talking about a good fast AF ZK. Yes, at least Nikon D7500 with a whale. What is its analogue of the UPC in terms of speed?

              • Arkady Shapoval

                Alas - already any, the same last sleepyheads a6500, etc.

            • Seladir

              The speed of single-shot AF is back in the year 2013 Olympus made it fast purely on contrast AF.
              AF tracking - any modern Sony or Canon mirrorless camera with a DualPixel sensor. As an example: an amateur Canon M50 Mark II, wrote a video with a cat at home on a dark whale in telephoto position with f / 6.3. The cat (black) darted from the lighted room into the semi-dark corridor, went a little outside the frame and returned. All this time, the AF frame was unmistakably on it, and when the cat ran out of the frame for a while, then it picked it up on its return.
              Or open the Canon 90D review on dpreview - they clearly show how the AF tracking on large, large individual phase sensors can no longer compete with the image sensor.
              Canon R5 versus 5D Mark IV - I think the result will also be predictable.

              • 1Ds_mk3

                "Canon R5 versus 5D Mark IV - I think the outcome will also be predictable."
                Sorry, the price tag is different.
                And if you take into account the cost of 24-105 / 4L or RF24-105 / 4L, then it is completely different.
                RF glasses are expensive.
                Without native RF lens - adapter and EF lens needed.

              • Seladir

                Starting price 5D4 - 3499 $
                Starting price R5 - $ 3899

                In general, one field of berries.

              • 1Ds_mk3

                You're right:
                BUT, this is the price for the US market.
                For Europe - the euro.
                And then 5DMk4 dropped in price by 1000 rather quickly.
                In Russia now - 5DMark4 can be bought from 175.000 rubles.
                And R5: from 300 thousand.
                But this does not in any way change what I wrote, since we are now living not in 2016, but in 2021. The price tag is still different. And yes, RF glasses are more expensive than EF glasses.
                Plus EF has a lot of used and new Tamrons, Sigma.

        • Arkady Shapoval

          In section JVI or EVI there is a separate section of the Dignity of EVI. This is exactly what you are asking about. Please see if you can find the answer.

          • Alexey

            Yes, I read it, thank you - there are no advantages of the BZK, overlapping the advantages of the ZK. And most importantly - the speed of work and volatility.

            • Arkady Shapoval

              To deny the merits of the BZK in our time is something not to understand. Even if you don't like it, to write like this “there are no advantages of the UPC” when the facts are clearly indicated is an indicator of some kind of misunderstanding.
              About focusing - here is my note https://radojuva.com/2021/01/new-milc-love-real-time-eye-af/
              Let's just say, 3-4 years ago, I was also sure that the CPC is the peak of perfection and nothing else is needed. But due to the fact that I do reviews and constantly come across new technology, I must state with full responsibility that bzk in our time can really easily compete with ZK, especially where my professional interests of working as a photographer intersect.
              And after the announcement of the Z9, there will be no return to the ZK.

              • 1Ds_mk3

                Arkady,
                “But due to the fact that I do reviews and constantly encounter new technology, I must state with full responsibility that the bzk in our time can really easily compete with the ZK, especially where my professional interests of working as a photographer intersect.”
                We are waiting for your reviews of new BZK: Nikonov, Canon, Fuji.

              • Alexey

                I'm not saying that the UPC has no advantages at all. The UPC does not have advantages that override the advantages of the ZK, which the UPC does not. At least for the current time.
                In general, I assume that the situation will be as follows - despite the long-standing automatic transmission in the car, there are a bunch of models, incl. from top brands, with manual transmission. How the DSG did not cancel the manual transmission of the cars. And Duster has 86% of sales in the Russian Federation - with manual transmission.

              • Ivan

                Alexey, you are again manipulating concepts, in the same way as previously attributed interchangeable lenses to DSLRs. What does Dusters have to do with it? Is there an electric motor there? The point is that the manual transmission is for internal combustion engines or diesel engines, and in electric vehicles, the engine thrust is electronically controlled. It's the same with cameras. If a mirror is a good solution for film cameras, then for digital cameras it is an atavism.

              • Arkady Shapoval

                Once upon a time, the adherents of the film asserted that there was nothing better than the film. But the market decided otherwise

              • Alexey

                Ivan, quote me my comment and give me a link to it, where I “attributed interchangeable lenses to DSLRs”?

                Gearboxes for electric cars are not needed due to the peculiarities of the electric motor, so they were never installed on them. This situation is not comparable with the mirror of a digital gearbox, where it has been successfully used for a long time (unlike a gearbox and an electric motor) and is not an atavism due to, at the moment, the inability of the UPC to reach the level of the gearbox parameters, such as the power consumption and AF speed ...

              • Arkady Shapoval

                For example, I believe that there is no fundamental difference in AF speed, even in difficult shooting conditions. By the way, even the 70 Canon 2013D showed wonders because of the DUAL PIXEL, not to mention modern cameras. If you do not like, for example, Sony, about which I mentioned here, then take for a sample Canon, which has DUAL PIXEL and which is an analogue of phase sensors. Only these sensors are now as many as there are pixels.
                And there are no problems with power consumption for work, I wrote about this - https://radojuva.com/2020/10/milc-evil-dslm-battery-life/
                But as in the case of the film, it will be possible for a very long time to hear about the superiority of the CZK.

              • Ivan

                “If you don't want to bother with interchangeable optics, you can take ultrazoom, but not at the price of a DSLR. And if with a removable - a DSLR. " This is your phrase. Rangefinder and scale cameras are also available with interchangeable optics.
                Electric cars are "lucky" that the electric motor control appeared earlier. And there were technical difficulties with the CZK, which have now been overcome. That is why, at first, the design was based on film cameras.
                Arkady is right. A person who does not want to understand is not going to understand anything. Your other thoughts have no desire to comment.
                I can only say that this type of people who deny everything new and progressive is quite common. They will find thousands of arguments to support their beliefs. My grandmother has always been against innovation. All her life she was used to lighting a gas stove with a match. When I bought her a piezo lighter, she was hostile. But then for many years I only used it. My father was aggressive towards the cell phone (in the days when they were still push-button), and now he changes iPhones like gloves. And more about cell phones. I know people who, in the days when the cellular was a luxury, said that only idiots use cellular communications, because it causes a cancerous tumor. And then, the same people began to use this everyday accessory with might and main.
                And there is also a type of people who scold everything that is not available for them in terms of financial capabilities.

              • Ivan

                And by the way, what kind of features of electric motors are you talking about? There are only other external control schemes. Remove them and put on the clutch and gearbox. There are no technical obstacles to this.

              • Alexey

                Ivan, read at least something about the electric motors of electric vehicles yourself. The electric motor effectively operates in a much wider rpm range than the internal combustion engine (which usually turns 1500-3500), while delivering maximum torque at any rpm from the start. It has no idle speed - it can be stopped and started all the time, so it doesn't need a clutch and gearbox. This is its fundamental difference from the internal combustion engine, and it's not about the "control schemes"

              • Ivan

                What I mean is that it is possible to reduce the torque power from the electric motor and using mechanics, only this is not necessary, because it is superfluous. And the mirror for the CZK was a necessary measure. As well as a mechanical shutter. It is also illogical in digital cameras.

              • Ivan

                And by electric motor control circuits, I meant a thyristor power regulator or a frequency converter. Not a single unit with an electric motor can do without them.

    • Peter Sh.

      It looks like a bzk is much cheaper to produce than a DSLR. So they tell us from each iron what ultramodern and technological they are. And what a crap that ancient mirror is. As a result, everyone starts repeating the same thing, nevertheless they say how out of date I will be, like a piece of feces in an ice-hole. No way.

      No pro will switch to another new and completely unfamiliar system without obvious and indisputable advantages. Well, I can only talk about reporters, of course.

      • Alexey

        So it is - the key to successful sales is to make more assortment, all kinds of modifications, variations. The consumer's eyes run wild and he wants to try everything. When it comes to candy in the store, it's one thing. And when for years to produce the same camera, albeit a good one, while your competitors have already changed a dozen, the user gets the impression that this is some kind of backwardness. So they came up with a new system for the user - BZK crop, BZK FF ... A bunch of optics and went to this noise ...
        Whereas everything worked and works fine before. It is enough just to follow the development of electronics and install improved sensors, processors ...

        • Seladir

          How to organize autofocus on the eyes of animals on the ZK?

          • Arkady Shapoval

            Modify the ZK of Sony SLT cameras. Although, stop - they are already extinct :). Use Live View

      • Michael

        There won't be a pro, an amateur can. Moreover, some buns of the bzk still give, such as advanced autofocus algorithms (for eyes, tails), good exposure metering, a good viewfinder (relative to amateur DSLRs, of course) with an extended and customizable set of parameters in the info line. Without a mirror, it is easier to follow the path of improving the camera software without additional. glands.
        Yes, you can do without everything, especially with a mirror profile.

    • 1Ds_mk3

      I do not like the weight distribution and battery operation in the BZK.
      When a normal 2.8 aperture zoom lens is mounted on the UPC, which is actually a digital rear with an awkward grip.
      Have you seen the EOS R with the 28-70 / 2.0?
      I am not against the UPC, but what we have now is a trial run on users.
      *
      I didn't like EVI - what I saw is still different from the real shot.
      For example shades or colors. There is no 100% match.
      Perhaps they will finish it.
      *
      And most importantly - by putting a battery in the One or an analogue from Nikon, I can be sure that it will last for a day or even more. If you have a spare one, then you don't even need to take a steam bath and take off all day in winter. Even if both are unoriginal.
      *
      In the UPC, I like the idea of ​​a matrix stub that can work in conjunction with a lens stub. This compensates for the inconvenience of ergonomics.
      *
      What I don't like about the UPC is that even with a native adapter, not all lenses work normally.
      Especially not relatives. And even such a moment - would you risk hanging something heavy by 6kg or more through the adapter on the EOS Rp or R1? Let me remind you that the body of these cameras is made of plastic.
      *
      What's funny is that the lens revolution never happened. In the whales of the BZK some kind of disgrace.
      They promised that all lenses would be smaller and lighter. But where are these marketers now?
      Shut up and do not disgrace anymore. For fairy tales are one thing, but physics and optics and real life are another.
      Now - another marketing tale about the weight and compactness of cameras.
      Yes, a mirror of the archaism type, it is not needed. We will put EVI, the percentage is more powerful and more voracious, the battery is less than in the phone. The BZK adherents say, let's hang 40 / 2.8 or Chinese and like jeans or jackets will fit into the pocket of jeans. I have a question - do you have a modern 6-inch tablet phone in this pocket there? Does the pocket pull back? It pulls me off and in general it looks moronic, but I won't carry a jacket or jeans a pound in my pocket. Let the marketers wear.

      • Michael

        I have a similar opinion, but I think this is temporary. Nobody stutters about the size and weight, cameras with a normal grip appear. In the end, there will be normal solutions for the pros and the running-in will be completed) In 5-7 years everything should be settled.

        • Alexey

          ... but to make 80-200 2.8 the size of a thimble, the laws of physics will not allow nikokhda :)

          • Ivan

            If the State Duma in the third reading adopts laws against the laws of physics, it is possible.

          • Michael

            Do not need. Large bzk in a magnesium case with a good grip and does not need 80-200 with a thimble

            • 1Ds_mk3

              "Big bzk in a magnesium case with a good grip ..."
              Then what's the point in the BZK?
              They should be of the same type, so that the type must be in
              the pocket fit.

              • Michael

                The point is in the developed software part. They shouldn't be small. This is Sonev's insanity because of which I was very skeptical about the BZK several years ago. Only cameras with a small sensor can be small - the rest is marketing

              • Victor

                Bzk do not have to be small, but they do not have to be big by all means. Let them be different. Anyone who needs a good grip and a bunch of buttons - they will choose one who is small in their pocket (Sonya Nex with 16 / 2.8, for example, quite fits into the pocket of a jacket) - they will take one in their pocket. This is normal. Choice.

              • 1Ds_mk3

                Again.
                A camera in your pocket is a moronic, non-viable notion of marketers.
                What is this nex? This is used.
                Of the new small ones, Fuji has.
                But they are strange and to them again. NEED a lens.
                What is 16 / 2.8? This is a 24mm EGF. It's impractical - humans have horse-like muzzles.
                Those. ideally a zoom, well, maybe a girl and a picture and a landscape.
                Something like 24-105 / 4L, preferably with a stub. And this is the size and dimensions.
                Well that is the pocket version does not roll if you do not go like a gopnik all year round in a tracksuit.
                Olympus and Panasonic have cameras for girls and for pockets. Those that are undercrops. But they again need a lens, and if a good zoom and a zoom is again the size.

              • Victor

                Well, about the nonviability of the Nexus, this is only your opinion, as well as about the stupidity of the 16mm pancake.
                I use them often on trips, for example, a very convenient and compact (!) Bundle.
                The opinion that compact cameras “for girls” is already yesterday.

              • Arkady Shapoval

                I don't even know, they tried to attribute compactness to the full-frame a7 and a7p, while no one spoke about the pocket, after these cameras the rhetoric about “compactness” disappeared. Personally, I think thoughts about the compactness of the bzk are not consistent. For professional solutions, no one mentions compactness. Can't understand why you cling to it

              • 1Ds_mk3

                Nex in the past.
                Don't believe me? Ask Sonya.
                What happened to Nex? And he is not there.
                There is a6500-6600. And they are needed by other people, for other purposes.
                Very convenient 24mm focal length ....
                For everything, huh?
                Throw off a couple of photos to rate.
                24mm will definitely not work for everything, I know that. Arkady think too.

              • Victor

                Well, stick in the text where I mentioned “for everything”. I try not to shoot people close to him, you shouldn't worry about this. General views - yes.
                There are plenty of examples on the net.

                Sony went into the premium segment, even the 6100 costs money, but the a6000 is still on sale, and in fact it is not far from the Nex in size. Actually, the entire 6xxx series is quite compact.

                Yes, and on one Sony, the light did not converge like a wedge. There is Fuj. Canon with compact light and cheap pancake. Mikra, yes, these are also cameras, oddly enough.

              • Arkady Shapoval

                The a6000 series is quite an ideological continuation of the same Nex-7, just the name of the line was changed when switching from NEX to ILCE.

            • Seladir

              So there is already an R5 with the ergonomics of dimes, and then there will be "ones".

              • Victor

                So "ones" have already been declared - a1 and z9

          • "Joe"

            "But to make 80-200 2.8 the size of a thimble the laws of physics will not allow nikokhda"
            You are overly categorical.
            It is enough to compare what the “laws of physics” were like 1000 years ago and now to assume that in the next thousand years, while maintaining the same rates of development of science and technology, this 80-200 2.8 the size of a thimble may turn out to be such an ordinary thing that it will even be boring talk about this.
            By the way, at the moment Samsung Galaxy S21 Ultra offers the user 13-240mm f / 2.2-4.9 in a very compact size. The creators of the first cameras, perhaps, also considered the possibility of the existence of such cameras, which are now in smartphones, unscientific fiction.

            • Aleksey68

              what nonsense ... ..
              one question - what is the size of the matrix for this piece of plastic, eh?
              here is the answer.
              no one can change the laws of physics.

            • Victor

              Joe, you are not from Kemerovo, by any chance?

      • "Joe"

        “Would you venture to hang through an adapter on an EOS Rp or R6 - something heavy weighing 1kg or more? Let me remind you that the body of these cameras is made of plastic. ”
        1. Used Canon EF 80-200mm f / 2.8L (1,33 kg) with Canon EOS 200D. The body of this camera is made of polymer materials (you call them “plastic”). No problem.
        2. Polymeric materials have long been used to make things that are subjected to high mechanical stress. For example, firearms bodies.

        • Novel

          By the way, yes. I prefer to hang a battery pack on large lenses for more convenient weight distribution, but this is just a matter of convenience, and not impossible to hang the same lenses on my wife's 200D. Either a tripod foot is used, or the weight is transferred to the lens rather than the camera. In the end, there are 400 / 5.6, 600/4, 800 / 5.6 - somehow they shoot on them, without fear of breaking the mount.

  • Novel

    And also in the template of Nikon lenses Nikon Nikkor Z 50mm 1: 2.8 S MC leads to page 105 / 2.8.

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